Pew Again
Blogging this week has been interesting since it has been dominated by the Pew survey report which has generated lots of discussion. Here. Over at Amy's.
It has also generated inquiries from a couple of major Catholic on-line media outlets who had seen my comments.
One thing quickly became obvious. It is hard for many of us to set aside our internal concerns in order to simply listen to those approximately 15 million American Catholics who have left for the evangelical world. Can we grasp the basic needs or dynamics that have drawn so many into a very different sort of Christian experience and community? We cannot limit ourselves to the familiar currents of current intra-ecclesial debates if we are going to reach out to the many millions of lapsed Catholics in this country.
The fear seems to be that the only possible result of listening would be to simply adapt whole-sale evangelical assumptions and practices. I was challenged several times over at Amy's by commenters who seemed to think that my desire to listen was really a cover for some other intra-ecclesial agenda. In this case, a desire to "evangelicalize" the Church and undermine traditionalist sensibilities. I responded that I have no such agenda and tried to return to the question: 15 million Catholics didn't become evangelicals accidently. So how can we find out what drew them out of the Church and into the evangelical world?
And then someone else responded: "Sherry, be honest with us. Isn't this really about X(fill in your traditionallist cause)"
Because everything is really about our inner ecclesial battles, you know.
No. Really. It is really, really not about our endless debates over the Second Vatican Council and its impact. It is really, really not about our internal polarization and culture wars.
For one moment could we set aside our endless debates about the past and remember that the vast majority of people on the planet (including the majority of Catholics) don't care about the burning issues of chattering class ecclesial insiders? They make their decisions based upon their own burning issues which often are very different from our own.
Bringing those 15 million back - or losing them and their children permanently - will affect the Church's life profoundly for generations to come. (One estimate is that one third of US evangelicals are first or second generation former Catholics. Much depends upon how you count your evangelicals but you get the idea.)
One obvious question: how many among those 15 million would discern a priestly or religious vocation if they were active Catholics?
We must remember that what is at stake is not just those who have already left but those who are on the verge of leaving today and will be tempted to do so in the years to come - and their children. How many thousands of Catholics in this country are considering leaving the Church as I type this sentence? The 8:1 ratio is still alive and well and there is no reason to believe that it will simply alter in our favor without any attention or effort on our part.
15 million is just the beginning of our possible losses. I am not personally cheered by the prospect of knowing that there is a 1 in 3 chance that the child whose baptism I am celebrating today or next year will either be an evangelical or "nothing" in 20 - 30 years. Do we really want to function as a de facto farm team for other Christian groups?
Circling the wagons or retreating behind barricades is not the historic Catholic response to this sort of situation which we have faced many times before. Creative, imaginative, proactive mission outward is very much in the Catholic tradition.
And listening to and understanding what actually propelled people to leave does not compel us for a nanno second to trash the Catholic Tradition and mindlessly adopt evangelical methodology. LIstening gives us new eyes and new questions with which we can turn to the fullness of the faith and ask "How does our Catholic faith speak to this issue or this need?" It gives us the chance to learn from Catholic masters of evangelization and formation who have gone before us but whose pastoral genius has been lost to history. And it just might involve seeing something new in our faith that speaks powerfully to the needs of our day.
St. Dominic and his early friars went out to and among a huge movement of lapsed Catholics (Albigensians or Cathars) in his day - while when the order was still in its infancy. Even novices, who had not yet received theological formation, were expected to engage in evangelistic street preaching. "Hoarded grain goes bad." was Dominic's motto.
St. Frances De Sales became bishop the "evangelical" way. He set out on foot to re-evangelize an area of alpine France in which every Catholic church had been padlocked for 60 years! Through an astonishing, winsome 4 year personal ministry, he won back huge numbers of Catholics and then was made bishop of the people he had evangelized. "Let us see what love will do" was his motto in an era when armies usually decided the religious allegiance of a nation's citizens.
"The difference between ordinary people and saints is not that saints fulfill the plain duties that ordinary men neglect. The things saints do have not usually occurred to ordinary people at all. . . .'Gracious' conduct is somehow like the work of an artist. It needs imagination and spontaneity. It is not a choice between presented alternatives but the creation of something new." A. D. Linsay as quoted by Dorothy Sayers.

20 Comments:
One word: lukewarmness.
At the end of the day, apathy towards Jesus does not satisfy.
Hello:
How many of these 15 million are divorced Catholics or children of divorced Catholic? 15 million seems proportional to the countries divorce rate?
No doubt. A more zealous proclamation of Catholic truth in a charitable way is what's needed
Tholoco:
Good question. I don't think anyone knows.
I was discussing this with fellow catechists. There are a lot of factors with cradle catholics leaving and I think one of the biggest is too much emphasis on hitting the child hood milestones and then ignoring it. You know what I mean when you think of the expense people go to over 1st Eucharist. A wonderful event, yes, but after that, we're unlikely to see young people in CCD until they come back asking for Confirmation, and even then it's a small percentage of those. Some hook is needed to keep families and their children interested.
The other aspect I suspect is just typical American iconoclasm and a "Don't Tread on Me" tradition. We're very anti authority. It's how the nation started itself with rebellion. The fact that there is a clear head of the Catholic church may be something that naturally disagrees with these little anarchists whereas the Protestants are usually very decentralized. I'm not suggesting a change in our way, I'm just pointing out what I see.
-JPG
This is a bit longish for a comment.
I thought you might find some benefit in hearing from a convert from evangelical Protestantism to evangelical Catholicism and now to more traditional Catholicism.
I began my journey into Catholicism by attending a retreat that my friend promised me would not be "very" Catholic. For a Protestant it was far too Catholic, but in the end, I left with two valuable experiences. The first was the love the strangers at this retreat showed me in spite of my disinterest. The other was the witness of the powerful and active faith life of Catholics which I had before believed to be nonexistent.
Following the retreat I was invited to a theology discussion where I was promised I could find the answers to all my objections. I only went once, but the one surprisingly valid response I received hooked me on finding out why Catholics believed what they believed. My friend who had invited me to the retreat was constantly present to find the answer to any question I had.
The group with whom I was now surrounded was very evangelical - contemporary Christian music at Mass, praise and worship on Thursday nights, and even featured a few charismatics. All of this made the transition fairly easy. I have often said that if the Mass at the retreat had been in Latin or had been the Tridentine, I would have been totally weirded out and never have stayed, but I think I was already totally weirded out, and it really couldn't have been significantly weirder. So honestly, I would have entered either way.
Today, I love the Tridentine - the symbolism contained within it is so profound (and so obvious if you know the Church's teachings!) that I am constantly astonished by the difference between the extraordinary and the ordinary forms of the Mass. I love Gregorian chant even if I don't know Latin. How did this happen? The evangelical Catholics with whom I found myself were faithful to everything they were taught about the Church's teachings, so I knew that the Church's teachings were it, and there was no other way to be Catholic. But these friends had never been given the blessings of an understanding of her liturgy, so neither was I. When I moved to Chicago, I met people who knew about the liturgy, who cared very much about what went on and who understood what was happening. I gained new eyes through our interactions and now am something more of a traditionalist.
So what do I think that means for your question? We don't have to forfeit our inheritance. In fact, we shouldn't. Instead, we have to be present to those who are in need (as my friend was), we have to show Christ's love to those who don't want us to love them (as those at the retreat did), we have to be faithful to Christ's teachings as the Church has given them to us (as those in my community were), and we have to be willing to educate ourselves and others (as those in my community were). This is not an institutional movement, this is a movement of individuals and small groups of people. St. Dominic was one man with a small following, St. Frances was one man. And I suspect that what they shared spread from one convert to another to another.
Institutionally, we have to support the St. Dominics and the St. Franceses in their work, stop cutting our losses, and stop trying not to get hurt.
What I find interesting is the approach everyone is taking. The general approach is to turn this into a problem with one solution or as something "I" or "they" must fix. I think we are forgetting this most fundemental reality: It is the work of the Holy Spirit to sanctify and draw individuals into (and through) the Church. What is needed is not more of less of something, but rather more of someone - Holy Spirit! We need Him as the princple mover, former, problem-solver, and director of the state of the Church. I believe it is our surrender to "His action" through a personal and communal discernment that we as a Church can best respond to the survey.
Bobby
I lost my sister to the "Reformed" movement which is hyper- Presbyterism. She can not tell any one why she is a "Reformed Christian", her only statement has been I am not going to tell some "fag" priest my sins. I have my suspisions about why she left. I believe that she commited a serious and grave sin, she cannot believe that Christ through a priest can forgive her. She bottles it up inside and tries to hide in a system that tells her confession is not neccesary.
This a problem which can only be solved Sacramentaly
With the faith that God will draw people to the Truth of the Catholic church, we need to be a place that evangelicals can come to for more, not less Christianity. My sister left the Church and has an amazing faith and knowledge; I think she would be a lonely Cathlolic if she joined her local parish. She knows the Bible, history, spirituality (she'll come home, I have faith), but will she have peers in the parish to share her faith with?
When we Catholics know, love and serve God more than our evangelical brothers and sisters, there will be a place for them to come home to. Then, the evangelical communities can be the "farm teams" for the Catholic Church.
--Alisa
Sherry,
I read your comments over at Amy's. You seemed to advocate smaller congregations, where someone would notice if someone didn't show up. But the problem is, that's up to the pastor. It seems to me that your suggestions, as good as they are, are really the province of the clergy, not the laity. Even evangelization is really under the direction of the clergy. So where do you go from here?
Steve
Steve:
Numbers are a real issue - numbers of priests and numbers of Catholics. Small parishes are not in our future.
But large communities can act like small communities if they make it a priority. Many evangelical mega-churches make small Christian communities a very high priority because they know that most people need a real experienced of community to grow as a disciple of Christ and to flourish as a person. They have large numbers of their people involved in small groups
They also deliberately nurture a culture and structure that is designed to move someone out of the "crowd" (which is what they call the big numbers who cone on Sunday) into deeper (and therefore more personal) levels of discipleship and community. (This is what Rick Warren's Church does.) they expect the "crowd" to be much larger than the number of disciples but they are constantly actively seeking to draw menbers of the crowd into deeper communion with Christ and one another.
Does anyone do it perfectly? Of course not. Certainly in every large congregation, lots of people just drop in and out. But a much higher percentage of their people are likely to be intentional disciples than ours are.
Evangelicals are more aware and focused in this area and expect much more. They expect personal and spiritual change *should* happen in the life of every individual who walks through their door. Their expectations *in this area* are so much higher than ours (there are other areas where our expectation is so much higher than theirs) and they are constantly wrestling with what facilitates spiritual renewal and transformation.
The most successful communities fail alot too but they fail "faster" - that is, they are always asking what the impact of their efforts are and so they tend recognize failure faster than we do. And then they seek to grasp why they failed to make disciples and change accordingly.
It's neither magic nor a mathematical formula. It's just asking over and over: are we doing what Christ asked us to do?
Cardinal Stafford told me this story in Rome from his time as Bishop of Memphis:
Just as he moved into town and before he was known locally, he thought he'd attend the local Baptist mega-church near the cathedral in mufti just to see what they did.
So he did - and to his amazement, was not only noticed and greeted but invited to fill out a little card during the service and immediately after the service found himself invited into a Sunday School class of single men in their 50's like himself!
Cardinal Stafford said that they went around and introduced themselves and said what they did for a living. His contribution? "I'm in public relations."
Cardinal Stafford has been telling that story ever since. It obviously made quite an impression on him.
Which online outlets quoted you?
Mary
Also, CARA has issued a response to the Pew survey. It's at:
http://cara.georgetown.edu/rel022808.pdf.
Mary
I've always had great experience explaining to evangelicals the whole breadth of [orthodox] Catholic experience, from Charismatic to Traditionalist, and inviting them to events they're attracted to, I also help them to realise that we do use the bible.
As a Catholic I try to be "all things to all [people]", and I feel comfortable in the most energetic to the absolutely most bland (i.e., my current parish) but that has to do with my conversion being knowledge of the reality of Christ the sacraments. Which though something that needs to be stressed and stressed repeatedly (as it sets us apart, defines us, and is ultimately what every human desires) it is also wise to not expect someone without that faith yet to be fulfilled by that.
Yet, I also know that from my experience in bland churches, I always seek fellowship, and always seek to form new groups and ministries that will keep my fire going and ignite, attract and strengthen others'. At my current parish I've struggled because the historic authorities (i.e., parish council and priest) have been so tired by the lack of fire, that they see most things as hopeless, and have as such quashed many of my attempts.
Very interesting discussion. I am struck by what Cherbear and Bobby said. First, I think that it is the call of the laity to evangelize. It is not an institutional issue. As I continue to work in Adult Faith Formation it becomes more and more apparent that we will keep people from leaving and bring people in, one person at a time. It is about a personal encounter with Christ generally that the laity provide. Therefore, the laity need to be formed - see Catherine of Siena Called and Gifted Workshop for ideas and information!
Seconldy, we cannot forget to to PRAY!!! Bobby is right - this is the work of the Holy Spirit. But we need to be ready to put "skin to our prayer" (ronald Roheiser) when we are confronted with someone who is seeking.
Just my thoughts.
Amy
I agree with Amy & Bobby insofar as I believe that the power of conversion is the Holy Spirit, and that we need to do our part to cooperate with Him.
JPG said that "Some hook is needed to keep families and their children interested," and I would like to submit that the "hook" (oh, dear: sorry, Jesus) is the Lord Himself. *HE* is the main attraction, and I do mean *attraction.* Being an 'agent' through which people can encounter Christ (one way of saying "cooperate with the Holy Spirit") is something we are called and privileged to do.
Sherry,
It's not: "And then someone else responded: "Sherry, be honest with us. Isn't this really about X(fill in your traditionallist cause)"
Nor is it the culture wars or Vatican II. It really is the place of the liturgy in the Church.
Despite what you think, I'm not a traditionalist. Otherwise, I'd be a member of the SSPX, which I'm not. I'm fully onboard with the results of Vatican II, because I'm a faithful Catholic. But I also know that the Liturgy has been the playground of many Catholics in the 50 years since the council and not for the better. Many Catholics left after Vatican II and it was not only because they were seduced by secularism. Many left because they hated the new Mass and the protestantization of the Church. And their children were thus not brought up in the Church, nor, now their grandchildren.
I don't think you realize that for Catholics liturgy IS a burning issue and it makes a difference, and it's not confined just to the "chattering class." Pope Benedict has always been concerned to protect the faith of the average Catholic and one of the things that has greatly exercised him is the condition of the liturgy. He certainly doesn't regard it only as the arena of the few or the intellectuals. And he seems to think that providing a liturgy that is linked to the tradition of the Church will not only augment Catholic identity, whose attenuation is one possible reason for Catholic losses over the years, but will bring people back in the foreseeable future. And his knowledge is not negligible.
I don't doubt that many Catholics leave for reasons other than the liturgy. However, since liturgy IS the central focus of Catholic identity, which has suffered over the years, I might hazard a guess that many Catholics don't SEE tangible Catholic identity and thus do not realize the less tangible components of Catholic identity that are present in doctrine, etc. It's all of a piece and when one goes, often so do the others.
No one is saying that we should not evangelize, but we should evangelize predicated on a strong Church with a recognizable identity. Otherwise, there is little to set Catholics apart from all the other, competing groups.
Catholic tradition will always be determinative as far as the liturgy is concerned. That's not to say that we shouldn't listen to why people have left the Church. But I think we should also consider that this is a time when people are generally unserious. Look at marriage and divorce rates, for example. Do you expect people to be any more committed to their faith than they are to a marriage? Ever since Kant (and even before), God has been relativized. Do you really expect that, short of an apocalyptic reversal in worldview, people will be more serious about their commitment to God? Changing this will take generations.
I'm not saying that this means no efforts should be made, but it may also mean that people aren't leaving for particularly weighty reasons, either. And I don't really know that there is a solution for that.
But for those of us who are faithful Catholics, I do think we deserve a liturgy that is connected to the tradition of the Church and reflects the reverence and seriousness that is due to God. And that's why there is such vociferousness whenever the subject comes up. And Pope Benedict has given us that, both in his celebration of the NO as well as the derestricted TLM. But that doesn't make us "traditionalists." It just makes us faithful Catholics.
Janice
Wow. Lot’s of good stuff here. I am not the Catholic you lot seem to be, I am uninformed and probably lukewarm at my best although I wish for more. Anyway I digress.
Where I live and work, w coast Canada, I used to talk to the people around me about religion, lots of Mennos and Dutch reformed. Lots of ex-Catholics becoming protestant, or nothing..
The reason they attract caholics here is that quite simply, they are better organised and reach out to people. Sometimes they tell outright lies and falsehoods about the catholic church, some based on bishop's book about the sun god and the Babylonian cults etc , so appeal to laziness and pride , they people the opportunity to be their own "boss" no priest, no pope, no one telling you what to do. He's just a really good friend, pastor “bob”, a guy just like me.
He says you don’t need to go to confession, make a deal with your best friend Jesus in your head, throw your sins in your "sin wastbasket"; I am not making this up. I have heard it first hand. Then there is the birth control issue.
I have 5 kids. It's amazing the amt of people who wish to talk about my "sexual health" anyway, I love going to mass and seeing all the two child families. all of them happily practicing abstinence and NFP. :] all with fancy clothes and nice vans 5 tv's, wii, ps3 and Xbox for everyone. I believe, maybe erroneously that is a matter of faith for a Catholic to eschew the use of Birth Control, certainly not receive the Holy Eucharist while engaged in such practice, and yet, these practicing Catholics leave one wondering, where is the faith and the obedience to God’s will, the obedience to His Vicars on Earth and so these others leave. Maybe a bit more honest than those who stay and practice abominations in secret, or is that a little harsh?
Another personal example of the lackluster faith of these practicing Catholics. The local priest, a good man, was giving a homily about prayer and had the local students from the catholic high school come to the front of the church and sit down. He was addressing them before their confirmation. He explained you could pray anywhere, even in the schoolyard during break. One smart-alec audibly uttered, “Fat chance,” and everyone had a good laugh, the whole congregation. Good indicator of the spiritual health of the group at that particular Mass, maybe even of the parish.
Go ahead comment back, tell me it’s cute, or ask why don’t I have a sense of humour? I do just not in church. I get in trouble for not being serious enough sometimes. To be truthful it’s quite often.
I feel the boy should have been refused the sacrament or at least interviewed to discern his real intention and desire to receive the sacrament, maybe told, God forbid, he cannot receive it and why. A lot of parents push their children to the hoops and make them jump through, like a goal to be met, without any preparation on their part any sense of self investment or any follow through or expectations.
There is no desire for spiritual wealth in the western world any longer, unless it is on personal terms. Everything in our society is based on this false liberty I think. Cant have too many kids, it takes too much money, you have to surrender to much of yourself.
go to confession? You gotta be out of your mind. Answer to some guy in a funny hat, what the hell for?; i can talk to Jesus in my head anytime i want, he's my best friend, we have a personal relationship. It’s all about ease and comfort, and it’s not just our Church, a lot of common ground, I am not saying this properly, could be found in the rising obesity rates in N America, and W Europe. People are all so apathetic and helpless. Too few people are making the contributions which make our lives so rich and easy, it’s not required to participate only watch and reap the convenience and ease which follows these miraculous inventions and blind us with dreams, and leave us in rapture. It tastes great and requires a lot less effort!
You may take me as cold and maybe bitter I guess.
Our church is changing, these people leaving, the results of the survey I think show it's too late for them and they aren't coming back. If they are more like the lady I know of who was teaching the CCD children to say the “Our Mother” then why would you want them to say. Go ahead, try and correct that. They are not interested.
Let them go, the Church needs to get back to basics. I don’t really believe it's the end times and the Church will prevail against the gates of Hell, but this is the ebb cycle.
Many will leave, only a remnant will be left and that core will slowly grow again and swell. Some of this affluence we have needs to fade first, I think. For goodness sakes people are starving all over the world for various reasons and yet people go out and drop 500 bucks plus on a brand new xbox with all the extras plus another couple hundred bucks on games for it but not a drop to charity.
5 dollar coffees every day but not a quarter for the dude on the street corner and if you don’t want to give money to him then give it to a bunch who will help him.
My final point and I am sorry for the rant, a lot of people get all rosy and teary eyed and speak of what was, of Christendom. I don’t want to see a return to the Borgias, may God have mercy on their souls, of forced conversions done at sword point and this did occur. I believe in the Holy Catholic Church as a religious organization and even as a government to some degree, but there some ignoble moments and also there were huge parts of the population who believed because they had to believe in something and this is what everyone was. It was the norm.
Is what we are seeing the result of this, the descendants of these leaving, there is always a percentage of true believers and a percentage of hangers on. Its not popular or required culturally to be religious of any sort anymore, let alone catholic, for goodness sakes even the masons at one point required one to have a nominal belief in a Creator, now they don’t give a damn either. When one prepares wheat, the chaff leaves, not much good in saving it.
For the Glory of God, if you can salvage some part of this rant and use, go nuts
Hello
Saint:
It is glad news to hear you want more!There are so many suffering from apathy that will not attempt to assist with anything other than attending Mass that it is hard to say they have a religion.
We must not judge and we need to somehow use the fire in our hearts to set all ablaze. We are so tied up in the little things and we forget that Jesus is the reason for it all and that if he is in our heart all else is subordinate.
All the other folks who call themselves Christian have no knowledge of where the Book comes from and they deny that we as Catholic chistians have the true faith.
Again I am glad that you want more! I think the only way we can get that is to share what we have?
God Bless!
Tholoco
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